Orams receiving "help" re their legal case

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
06/01/2009 16:46

The Orams receive financial boost with legal bills over the law

suit of Meletis Apostolides for his property in occupied Cyprus



Under the title Mystery backer to boost Orams fight, Turkish Cypriot

weekly Cyprus Today newspaper (03-09.01.09) reports the following on

developments in the Orams case:



A British couple at the centre of an international legal row over

property rights in North Cyprus have received financial backing to

continue their fight from a mystery backer.



David and Linda Orams have been embroiled in a three-year court battle

with Meletis Apostolides after the Greek Cypriot claimed land in Lapta

[occupied Lapithos] on which they have built a '170,000 villa was his.



Speaking from her Sussex home this week, Mrs Orams, 62, revealed she

and her 64-year-old husband were receiving help from people with an

interest in North Cyprus to pay



source : Cyprus ( RoC) press info ...

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
06/01/2009 16:49

I believe that Mr Apostolides is also receiving financial backing. So all square there then. At least it's one less worry for the Orams. What really matters is the legal outcome.

brian24001


Joined: 23/03/2008
Posts: 606

Message Posted:
06/01/2009 16:52

So come on Mark, are you the mistery backer of the Orams? beacuse it is my opinion that a mistery backer would always deny it so as not to reveal their true identity.

Cypfan


Joined: 10/10/2008
Posts: 104

Message Posted:
06/01/2009 21:29

Backing them would be a bit like gambling on a gambler who's on a losing streak. Who would Ladbrokes put their odds on?

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
06/01/2009 21:35

RE msg 1, eneMMy : (...) The Orams receive financial boost with legal bills over the law suit of Meletis Apostolides for his property in occupied Cyprus (...)



===> Hi MM! Did your *source* quote the TRNC weekly Cyprus Today as their source? Why not?

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
06/01/2009 21:44

If this information is infact true, which i suspect that it is, then it only illustrates the political motives of Mr Apostolides who is the litigant.



I await to see the stance by the UK Courts against a UK citizen should the EU Courts find in favour of Mr Apostilides.

My view is let Mr Apostolides fight, fight and continue to fight until he gets tired of his antics and accept his life as it is in the ROC.

Mr Apostolides..Live and let Live. Settle with the Orams and move on.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
06/01/2009 21:50

Only problem is, the UK courts are legally bound to follow the ECJ decision, otherwise what is the point of referring the case?

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
06/01/2009 21:56

Hector,

The UK Courts are duty bound to follow derectives from the European Courts.

However the very detailed and versatile legal system within the UK can be interpreted to the benefit of its own citizens. The European Courts have the bark but are less motivated to bite. Certainly, in this unimportant civil litigation

case.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
06/01/2009 21:56

The Orams do have financial backing and admitted to this when they spoke at the HBPG meeting. They obviously did not disclose their backers for the very seem reason that Mr. Apostolides will not.

It is common knowledge who the Oram's backers are and a literature search easily confirms this.



I agree with Cypfan. Hiding to nothing springs to mind.The Orams main backer would do well to complete his TRNC development as people have paid up front and have been waiting for completion, in some cases since 2004.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
06/01/2009 23:39

Bradus,

OK perhaps you could tell us. Who is the backer that is providing financial assistance to the Orams.

Surely this information need not be kept confidential to yourself.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
07/01/2009 00:32

http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2006/jan/1252640.htm



Lots of other info if you simply google Orams and the name of the developer.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
07/01/2009 01:37

re msg 5 ... Hans



too quick to get in an attempt at a "punch below the belt?", perhaps... ;)



Line two, of paragraph two..



May be your worst eneMMy is yourself ? :D



Take Care, my Cheese - Eating friend !

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
07/01/2009 09:41

Mark - you couldn't just go on to another board, could you ??



All your posts seem to follow the same flavour of taking the mick out of the TRNC and the folk who have bought here.



As i said before - if my missus looked like your misus - i'd be twiddling her, not twiddling with my computer keyboard and winding TRNC residents up.



Nick

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
07/01/2009 10:37

Hi mmmmmmmmm,



It's unlike you to cut/paste (msg 1) without commenting as well to make your point.

It seems very obvious that Meletis Apostolides is benefitting from financial support as his potential costs will have exceeded his potential awards by now. Mr. A's backer must have an agenda which will be over and above that of Mr. A himself. That agenda must be something other than financial and we must assume it to be political.

If we accept this to be the case, why shouldn't the Orams have a backer with a similar agenda?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
07/01/2009 16:55

Hi "TRNC"Vaughan ! re msg 14



You are quite right .. I don't "like" posts that are merely cut and pasted... but I had to delete my bit as the post wouldn't fit :( ..



Then NegativeNick reminded me to tend to my Wife so I thought he might be right, on that occasion!



So.. my comment..



I posted this as Waz ( for example) seems to be of the opinion that it would be unfair and politically motivated if the GC plaintiff was being bankrolled..



We don't know if he is.. he certainly whinged in the press that he WANTED help..



Why do you assume that the Plaintiff won't get his costs back when / if he wins - as *I* think he will?



Finally, did I say or intimate that the Orams' couldn't / shouldn't have a backer.. if you got that impression, I have misled you..



I strongly believe- unlike say, Waz- that such cases focus minds on settlements



As the ECHR remind us - the Annan TC YES vote made no difference to WHO the legal owner was.. the problem has always been WHAT to do

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
07/01/2009 16:57

One more comment - bet you wished you didn't ask ...



.. have you noticed that this board's update re the Ormas' case does NOT reflect the latest news ?!

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
07/01/2009 18:49

mmmmmm....msg 16



OK...I'll step up and take the bait Mark....what IS the latest news on this case please?

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
07/01/2009 18:52

Come on Mark - spill the beans with news. I'm getting worse by the hour...

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
07/01/2009 20:00

?? re 16/17



Well didn't you know that the Eng and Wales judgement was appealed and the Eng Wales Court asked the European Court of Justice to rule.. ?!



Didn't you know that their legal advisor has advised that the RoC court judgement CAN should be enforced and that that advice is RARELY ( almost unheard of ) ignored?



Come on guys..

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
07/01/2009 20:20

my view is that if you purchased the so called exchange land then you knew that this senario could be possible at a later date.

how can you now complain?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
07/01/2009 20:32

But if you read the "spiel" at the entrance to this site, it appears that all is "rosey in the garden" re CY and property.. this isn't strictly true for differing reasons any where in CY... difficulty getting deeds, finding out there are o/standing mortgages on your property, making them hard to sell...

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
07/01/2009 21:23

Bradus,

Thank you for the post to illustrate that the Orams may be getting finnancial assistance. The Orams are defendents and have been pursued by Mr Apostolides and his political backers.

There is a clear case that Mr Apostolides has instigated this whole affair in order to gain political advantage over TRNC.It is not at all unfair that the defendant has the benefit of finnancial help to defend this unecessary fiasco.



mmmmm.. It is,in my opinion, unfair for the applicant Mr Appostolides to gain political and clear financial support for this civil case which has clearly now evolved into a political stage show for the ROC.

There is little creedence in your comment that suggests the case focuses minds upon a settlement. Minds are well focused without this disturbence to civil and prospective peace. I very much doubt that any judge will entertain an application for costs from either side given the clear indications of finnancial support.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
07/01/2009 21:41

mmmmm,

i think it ordepends on if you did your home work before buying, or if you just grabbed what you thought was a bargin.



waz

lets be clear the roc gov are paying for appostolides's case and the trnc gov are paying for the orams defence.

nothing has changed both sides have loads to loose.

the games have already begun, the outcome will yet to be seen.

if i were a betting woman ,my money would be on the roc to win.



if i had something taken from me i would want it back and would fight for it.

its just a shame soo many people will be caught in the cross fire!

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
07/01/2009 21:47

Does it matter who is supporting whom here? The outcome of this case will have far reaching effects on many more people than the Orams or Mr Apostolides. I'm afraid that those who think the Judges will take into account the political situation will be very disappointed. The last thing Judges will do is bend to politics. The issue in question here is quite simple. Can a court judgement given in one EU country be enforced through the courts in another EU country? It's not exactly earth shattering that the answer is 'Yes' is it?

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
07/01/2009 22:19

hector

yes more or less what has already been written.

but there was like a clause in it which said that the judgemnet had to take into account the on going cyprus situation/talks.

so they did realise the damage this could do to the peace process in cyprus.



if you need help with your ptp problem, i think i may be able to help you.

email me.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
08/01/2009 00:47

Hector, fire starter,

Thank you for your comments.

It is important to understand that the Orams case is a civil litigation.

It is without doubt that civil litigation will not take precedent over international political will. There is indeed an international political will to acheive settlement between TRNC and ROC.

The Orams will, if ECJ finds against them, prepare a case to be put before the House of Lords and on it will go. What a waste and a missdirected channel of money and effort by particularly the applicants.

Fire starter..There will be no winners in this approach to property issues. The case represents a tragedy to potential settlement and ongoing peace.



Hector..yes the question is simple enough as you indicate. To make it work and to solve the ongoing problem; It most certainly is not.



The solution is not forthcomming within the pedantics of the Orams case but lies with the politicians outside of the courts.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
08/01/2009 02:41

Waz, re msg 22



1/ *I* started the post that points out the Orams are now receiving financial backing ! .. why aren't you thanking ME ?!



2/ Please explain how you arrive at the conclusion that it is CLEAR that a GC - who STILL owns his land and has seen someone build on it without permission - probably having had to "run away" - is making a "political point" !!?



3/ You keep making "quite a song and dance" of the "fact" that Mr A was getting aid... ( I don't know if he is or not.. only that he was whinging in the GC press that he WANTED help ) What makes you SO certain he is.. and I don't see why it is a problem if either "side" are receiving aid - nor the source of it.. WHAT is important is that justice is done and ENFORCED.



4/ There has been VERY little progress to a settlement in Cyprus over the years - because having ethnically cleansed the maj ethnic group from nearly 40% of the island there was no incentive to deal.. !

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
10/01/2009 00:22

mmmm

Thank you too for your post.



Mr Apostolides was a young man of 21 when his father and himself vacated the said land. The land was home to a few lemon trees with estimated value of less than £1000.(the land)

Mr Apostolides;s legal bill to date is an estimated £400,000. Based upon an investment to return ratio the case is clearly not based upon financial gain.

Mr Apostolides is employed by ROC tourist board. I do not believe that he wishes to re-plant some lemon trees on land which he has very restricted access to. Motive?

However for an ROC citizen to win a litigation case involving property in TRNC represents significant political victory. An important political victory is clearly worth backing. Make your own judgment.



I agree that justice should be done.

However justice for ALL. Is the TRNC getting justice from its neighbours who in past history have been shown to be far from just. Is the International status of the TRNC , its exclusion from free trade, travel..con

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
10/01/2009 00:37

...cont

free political representation. The answer is NO. This is not justice this is denial of human rights.



There has been progress towards settlement. Progress thus far of note:

Peace for the last 34 Years.

Borders have been opened

Talks are under way.

The international community led by EU and UN are backing settlement and Peace.

Tourists and investors are taking the TRNC on board.

Re-conciliation groups are active.



Mark, your own song and dance which continues to follow simplistic legal protocol is not the solution to what is very clearly an International Political Issue.

The solution to the Cyprus problem is not to be found in civil litigation cases.

These Court cases may focus attention upon the problem, as you indicate, but my view is that if cases pile in as you indicate then ethnic tensions will re-emerge, get out of control and be a real threat to peace and settlement.



The Political path will lead to the solution. The matter should be kept out of the Courts.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
10/01/2009 15:51

waz

i agree wirth you last sentance the trouble is ,can the uk court look at the situation and rule accordingly, regarding the clause that it must not cause problems with the cyprus solution?

they possibly could adjourn it until the talks come to some sort of conclusion.

hence the property issues were agreed under some sort of settlement with both sides in agreement.

i personally think this will be the sticking point in the talks because i just cannot see both sides agreeing to any sort of deal with regards land and property.

i hope i am wrong, as i for one who love to see a final settlement for the cypriots.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
10/01/2009 16:09

Fire Starter,

Thank you for your post.

The Property issue is soon to arrive upon the talks agenda..within next month I believe.

Mr Talat has expressed the view that the civil cases currently underway; I asume he means specifically the Orams; are not conjusive to productive land settlement talks.

I agree with Mr Talat and not mmmmm,s view that the legal cases focus attention. Rather, It is clear that the ROC are playing legal pressure to strengthen their negotiating position.

TRNC have the advantage that they currently occupy the majority of questionable territory and property.

My view is that it will be down to the EU and UN to drive a property settlement foward.

I believe that these powerfull and influencial players will take the Annan plan of 2004 as the basis for negotiation.

The ROC will contest this stance vigourously but their dependance and membership of the EU could soon become their nemessis.



A final settlement , forced if necessary,will most certainly arrive.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
10/01/2009 17:08

Waz Re 27 /8



The land was and is his land to do with what he wants - it was STOLEN.. the costs have mounted because the Eng/Wales Court case has been contested ( I suggested and continue to suggest that Judge Jack's ruling - interpreted Protocol 10 , incorrectly) ) and now gone to the ECJ for appeal.



Mr A was on record as seeking help to fund his case - YES he even asked the govt. - and was told he couldn't expect the govt. to help !



You may suggest they have, so I suggest you try to prove it.



"Justice" was 30 years of Mr Denktash insisting on recognition before he would negotiate - meanwhile thousands of TCs continued to leave "paradise" and lot's of vacant GC owned properties were given to mainland Turks !



I can understand TCs needed somewhere to live post 1974, but WHY behave like the land is "exchanged" when it clearly hasn't been. THAT is not "Justice"..BIG time

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
10/01/2009 17:28

waz



msg 28



once again spot on .



musin

long live the kktc

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
10/01/2009 17:55

mmmmmm msg 33



Your arguments are becoming somewhat cyclic and very predictable.

However I shall comment.

It is accepted that Mr Apostolides along with others (Orams)have a title upon the said land. The land is not "stolen". This is your own interpretation so please kindly keep this to yourself.

I have a great deal of respect for Judge Jacks concise , detailed case summary as well as his final judgment.

His and Mr Beazeley,s interpretaion of Protociol 10 of the treaty of Accession is clear. Many of the Protocols of this treaty have been neglected by ROC. Protocol 10 was only a practical measure to allow ROC to asscend to EU membership. It is farsical in the de-facto situation.



It remains my opinion that Mr Apostolides is finnancially supported by the ROC administration. I express this opinion for others to comment. I have no inclination to enter into provision of proof. However,Mr Apostolides is either a very wealthy lemon farmer come tourism manager. ... cont

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
10/01/2009 18:01

OR, as I suspect he has legal aid.



Mr Denktash as well as Anosis and Eoka are thankfully history. We have moved forward. It is the De-fact status that must now proceeed to political settlement.



I am pleased that you acknowledge that TC needed somewhere to live post 1974.

By the same token the TRNC and its citizens have the right to progress their lives and their de-facto territory just as the ROC has.

It is as simple as Live and let Live.

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
10/01/2009 18:01

has he mentioned the "rump" yet ?





Nick

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
10/01/2009 18:24

msg 35 brill

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
10/01/2009 18:38

what about mess 36 then ?



Nick

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
10/01/2009 18:43

Nick what actually is the "rump"

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
11/01/2009 17:21

waz

the problem is that both mr a and the orams have title deeds for the same land.

as the international community don't recognise the trnc,(or so they say).

i wonder who and what goverment issued mr a's title deeds.

were they issued by the roc in recent years or were they issued when the brits were the goverment here?

as the international community only recognise the roc as the legal goverment and deeds as the legal deeds, i think the orams will always be on the loosing team.

also we don't hear anything about the tc who sold the orams the land in the first place.

i wonder what they gave up in the south to be given the plot in the first place.

it looks to me as if they will get of scot free , and the orams have become the scap goat.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
11/01/2009 19:05

Fire statrter, msg 40.

It is the unfortunate case that the ROC judgment against the Orams was one of default. Their appointed representative failed to appear before the District Court and consequently the judgment was passed in favour of Mr Apostolides.



I certainly am not aware of when ROC title to the said land was issued. I suspect that it was indeed prior to 1974 because the backer to Mr Apostolides would surely not invest in a case that had title that was not pre registered.



It is very clear that the ROC have a vested interest in granting title to an ROC citizen and not to any TC applicant.

I wonder how much land now remains unregistered (in ROC)in North Cyprus.

I also wonder how many ROC applications have been approved and titles issued subsequent to June 1974.

I also wonder if any TC applications for title were accepted and title issued.



The ROC clearly have no vested interest in protecting TC land in the South.

Their measures for restitution are non workable.

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
11/01/2009 19:15

39 - God knows - Marky is obsessed with it !



More of a leg man myself !





Nick

brian24001


Joined: 23/03/2008
Posts: 606

Message Posted:
11/01/2009 21:15

Re: msg 39

I think 'RUMP' is an acronym.

answers on a new thread here:

http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/9417.asp

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
12/01/2009 13:55

waz

i think a lot of the land in the north may be unregistered.

people didn't bother to register there homes much back then from what i can make out.

i have seen some of the village books in the roc land office.



so if you were dishonest what stops you from going to the roc and registering some land which you don't and never have owned.

just saying the title deed was lost many years ago.



i was wondering who issued the title deed for mr a, as if he had had it many years it woud have been the brits.

so the "double issued deed" so to speak would be an arguement between the uk and the trnc, as to who holds the legal title.



does anyone know who the tc is who sold them the land?

i bet he is long gone!



why have the orams not counter claimed him??

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
20/05/2009 16:30

Maybe the Orams should be compensated by the TRNC .If as looks likely now, there is no settlement then the Orams have lost their property, not to the GC ,his part in the story has ended, but to the trnc. They could then sell the land on to a Turkish non EU resident or utilise it in other ways.

ilovekibris


Joined: 18/05/2009
Posts: 394

Message Posted:
20/05/2009 16:50

msg 45,



but what if there is no TRNC a year or so from now and a new Cyprus comes into being? TRNC has never been known to pay anything to anybody because it does not exist in law. If that happens Turkey wont want to know because it will be a new slate. The case is against the individual who bought the disputed property.

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
20/05/2009 18:06

The case is against the individual who bought the disputed property.



and what about the person that sold the property ? surely they have more to answer to than the buyer.

zcacmxi


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 388

Message Posted:
20/05/2009 18:57

There is an ECHR case that says TRNC is not recognised so Republic of Turkey is responsible for what happens in North Cyprus.



In the same or another case, Republic of Turkey was advised to set up a "local remedy" in North Cyprus to handle GC property claims. The TRNC is seen as a subsidiary of Turkey, and the TRNC Immovable Property Commission was set up.

ilovekibris


Joined: 18/05/2009
Posts: 394

Message Posted:
20/05/2009 19:06

tattlad wrote: "and what about the person that sold the property ? surely they have more to answer to than the buyer."



But this is the TRNC- anything goes! You are thinking in UK justice or moral terms none of which apply here. The person who sold the property is long gone and the buck stops with the latest occupant. In any case it may have changed hands several times.

IMHO the GCs are the only ones who have any interest in the original TC in case he is "double dipping" by claiming back his place in the south, but I can't see them bothering for the sake of foreigners. The RoC totally HATES Brits who have bought in the north!

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
20/05/2009 19:15

and you are ????? msg 49 45 posts in 2 days , SOUTHERN////////////////////

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
20/05/2009 19:18

msg 46



Was saying what should happen,dont expect it will. There wont be a new Cyprus,but two separate states.Type only to be decided is if its by negotiation or by break down of negotiations.



The case against the individual is for rent ,and that the person must leave. It is not about the return of land which is outwith the buyers control. The only people that win is the TRNC itself or some non EU resident,thats why they should pay the Orams.



The ROC by not waiting before going to the EU,at least until the vote,surely knew the action would assist those opposed to any settlement.I thought the two leaders got on reasonably well,and would have expected Christofias

to warn Talat.



Now peoples backs are up ,the UBP are in power, Talats position has been undermined by being caught on the hop with the ROC action.Turkey is thinking twice about the EU.



Hopefully the two leaders can ignore recent developments and look at the bigger picture,



Other things have to be addressed,Wa

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
20/05/2009 19:25

Hi Happy Campers,



It is said that the first victim of war, is truth.!!!!



Relax my friends. Your homes are not at risk. Oh ye of little faith!!!!



wacyjim mon ami, Oh ye of little faith.



Wyn (As wyn Williams)

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
20/05/2009 19:33

hi wyn , never doubted it for one second, god bless/////////////

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
20/05/2009 20:41

im sorry but how can you say its not stolen land was it not taken by force? i dont care who was at fault and who started what up untill the war in 1974.



i just see things in plain black and white the land belong to a greek cypriot and he was forced by gunpoint to leave it.

ilovekibris


Joined: 18/05/2009
Posts: 394

Message Posted:
20/05/2009 20:44

girne29 wrote: "Hopefully the two leaders can ignore recent developments and look at the bigger picture,"

yes, i hope so. It may end up as two states or one state but I think individuals will be responsible for making their own legal arrangements.

natalie


Joined: 03/05/2009
Posts: 323

Message Posted:
20/05/2009 21:14

Harryroberts read the history books you bigot, what side of the island do you live on if at all?

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
20/05/2009 21:56

harryroberts



"i dont care who was at fault and who started what up untill the war in 1974"



Rather a shallow statement, I am sure there are some on the other side who dont care what happened in and after 1974. lets hope the two leaders dont hold those views.



Interesting that you should make your starting point for people being "forced to leave at gunpoint". 1974. For people in trnc being forced to leave at gunpoint predates 1974 by quite some time. Most other people in the south, while refusing to accept the reasons for the turkish army being needed there now,do accept that events PRE 1974 did cause, or as some would say, excuse the Turkish intervention.





There is never just black and white.Not unless one is a zealot.

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
20/05/2009 22:29

ok perhaps im not very good with words



but the way i see the only issue is this case is who is the legal owner and thats what the court has considered.



perhaps my sentance about not carring about what happened has come over wrong.



i do live in the south but i see things from both points of view there was no inncoent party to the cyprus propblem both communities where as bad as each. both commited crimes and both wanted to be annexed one to greece and one to turkey. my belief is in both cases these where minorities i live in Pyla right next to the turkish community.



for those who are not aware this is the only mixed village in cyprus an example that should be taken on board by both communities no problems in pyla

wackyjim



Joined: 04/06/2007
Posts: 760

Message Posted:
20/05/2009 22:34

Wyn me old mucker...."wacyjim mon ami, Oh ye of little faith.".... Here was me thinking I was one of the original Christian soldiers full of faith!!!! Got to agree I can't see a fleet of bulldozers crossing the border to start demolishing villas..in my case they wouldn't have to bother its already falling to pieces!!!!!

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
20/05/2009 22:43

harryroberts, your msg54 , there is none so blind as he who cannot see ,

spider


Joined: 03/01/2009
Posts: 5527

Message Posted:
20/05/2009 22:46

Oh dear,i must say it again,War is War,and what,or who is lost is lost,How the hell can anyone have or get anything back.!!!



My Farther never ever even saw is first wife or 1st daughter or home and homeland ever again..this was after the second world war,Russia took over Lithuania,and they could not leave,or he ever get back......Lost because of a war.

I can never understand,What all this fuss is all about...and never will.Someone perhaps can let me know when and if

anyone will loose their home or land they now have here...untill it happens it is not happening.



Or has someone just been put out of their house or home,NO....The fight continues untill the NEXT CHAPTER.!!!!



Spider.x

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/05/2009 11:28

Spider



Re msg 61

I have picked you up on this before...



There are many examples in recent history of dispossessed folk reclaiming back their homes post wars .. there are many cases pending.. in Germany, Poland , Cyprus, etc.,



The European Courts of Human Rights make a mockery of you thought process.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
21/05/2009 11:51

mmmm



Apart from east/west Germany when unified,who reclaimed their homes they lost 1945-49.

From a personal point of view ,my own family being a case in point,I would be interested to know.

The way out for the countries involved was to give compensation later on ,the amount being meaningless, but still compensation.

Bit like if trnc was a recognised country,the GC's being awarded 1ytl per donum,with no say in the matter.

ilovekibris


Joined: 18/05/2009
Posts: 394

Message Posted:
21/05/2009 12:08

rowlo wrote: "harryroberts, your msg54 , there is none so blind as he who cannot see ,"



Good job there are knowledgable and intelligent people like your good self to put everyone right on the cyprob.

vincehugo


Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 208

Message Posted:
21/05/2009 12:24

Arbee Re Msg 65



So let's get this straight. You are saying that the reason TC's moved from their homes in the South from 1963 onwards was because the TMT were "encouraging" them as part of a Turkish plan to partition the island. Nothing to do with their lives and established communities being threatened by GC's.



I would really like to read some facts that back up this view.



Vincehugo

vincehugo


Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 208

Message Posted:
21/05/2009 12:59

Arbee,



Along with this earlier quote from the same article "Turkish Cypriots were not concentrated in one area, but lived throughout the island, making their position precarious."



It would seem to me that the severe intercommunal fighting and precarious position of the TC's were a pretty good reason for moving, and who is to say that the TMT were not simply trying to secure the safety of TC's. I certainly don't see this article suggesting that the reason they were moving was to fulfill an objective of partition. In any case I think your presentation of the facts is at best selective and at worst propagandist.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
21/05/2009 20:29

Gentlemen,there are so many similarities between this situation and the one between Israel and Palestine following the "1948 War of Independence",as the Israeli's tend to call it. Palestine,between the wars was mainly Muslim,but there were also significany minorities of Jews and Christians,in almost equal numbers. Lots of Jews from other countries migrated to the area of Palestine ,which later became Israel.Eventually,the UN decreed that Israel could become a state in its own right,which ,of course,it did.

Many Palestinians were displaced as were Jews and Christians.These displaced peoples(in the main) started new lives in different areas and homes,as GC,s and TC,s have done in Cyprus.

What I propose is something similar to the UN Partition plan in 1947,so that TRNC can be recognised for the fledgling state that it is de facto. The UN and the EU should stop its horrific levels of self gratification and hypocrisy and accept the two new states within Cyprus as self determining areas !

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
21/05/2009 21:49

It is not illegal (in as far as I am aware) for costs to be paid or sponsored by a third party.



What astounds me is the level of costs (on both sides) that far exceed the value of the subject matter in question! Absolutely ludicrous.



Principles cost lots and lots of money, and there appears to be lots and lots on both sides to splash around. I predict there will be three winners......................................

















The successful party, their lawyer, and the loser's lawyer.



I'll bet all the lawyers are rubbing their hands together in glee all the way to the bank.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
21/05/2009 23:59

Arbee.



Went into your link.



For anyone interested,here are how events unfolded according to history in ROC





1: The 1950's - Terror campaign launched against Greeks



2: The early 60's - Turkey provokes clashes and attempts to invade

3: The late 60's - Turkey seizes strategic positions



4: The Turkish invasion of 1974



1: How America created the Greek junta

2: Cyprus sacrificed for American spy bases



Part 3: A nation betrayed

Part 4: The CIA files



Part 5: Kissinger illegally abetted Turkish invasion

Part 6: US connived to facilitate Turkey



Part 1: How Britain masterminded Cyprus partition

Part 2: How Britain sabotaged a bi-communal agreement



Part 3: Turkish terrorists were armed by Britain



After reading it, Sadly I can see why unification is impossible,if that is indeed the view in the south of events and how blame is divided, 100% to TC's,America ,UK, Turkey. No headings about GC , Greece, Eoka, etc.











Sadly,further debat

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 00:02

Cont



Sadly ,further debate is pointless,and is depressing.