"Whats A Positive Move Donty "

victoriasloss


Joined: 27/04/2007
Posts: 46

Message Posted:
06/12/2007 14:45

We decieded to make this a new thread as it has nothing to do with the original of the "other thread"



*****************************************88



What do you consider as" doing something positive" Donty - c'mon we are open to any idea that we have not already tried over the last 4 years



More than half a dozen of our "clan" have followed the TRNC legal system

and won, they have had judgements issued against the criminals, but cannot find a lawyer to enforce them - Why Donty - why will no lawyer enforce the judgements ?



We have all (everyone of us) followed the legal route as suggested by the BHC only to hit a brick wall in what appears to be a society that favours the criminal. There is not one lawyer in the TRNC willing to enforce these judgements that are signed by eminent judges - some of these judgements are nearly 3 years old and still the victims wait and the scum earn money - how much longer Donty do we have to wait ! Sorry the time for being nice and quiet like Brits are has now passed. We have plans for 2008 and these will start fall into place as the year progesses - look to those who created the problem in the first place - Look to the authorities "who stick their heads in the sand" whilst everything goes their way but as soon and the corrupción becomes apparent and for the world to see - start blaming everyone but themselves. We are glad that you are successful and we wish you the very best for 2008, but remember Donty there are many suffering here, there are some that are in danger of a 2008 house repossesion, some who no longer have a pension, some who have lost their life savings, there are some who have lost their health and even one who have lost their life !



So c'mon Donty - "Whats a positive move ?"

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
06/12/2007 18:11

i am not a lawyer so cannot help you.



how can i comment on your case? first i would need to go to law school, then read your case, then make a decision.



do lawyers enforce judgements? you tell me how does it work in UK?



are the people who you have judgements against able to pay and are they still in TRNC?



do you think bankrupting north cyprus will help you get your money? i dont think so.



work with the HBPG.

victoriasloss


Joined: 27/04/2007
Posts: 46

Message Posted:
06/12/2007 18:51

Donty - you don't seem to understand its not just me = me is a group ! There are many many with judgements that will not be enforced. Its a lawless state -there is absolutely NO SAFEGUARD for any foreign investor if things gowrong. We have all followed the legal route to the end and hot a brick wall. The cases are simple



People Invest In Property - Property does not materialise - Criminals make off with money - criminals sell more and more Property - Criminals make off with more and more money - Donty its only a few doing it and Its Not Rocket Science.



Yes all those concerned still reside in the TRNC, some are still selling property some have big houses and some have nice expensive cars.



Donty - Do you not think 3-4 years is long enough for victims to wait. People here are going bankrupt - people here are dying while they wait for what is rightfully theirs to be returned to them. They have been robbed - its wrong, wrong, wrong !



If a simple Truth Telling Website bankrupts a country then what a powerful tool it is and so be it. Perhaps those concerned and those in authority that are the cause will be tempted to come up with a swift solution before that happens !



So Far No-one - not one person to date - has come forward with any other solution that we have not tried over the past 4 years - Just TO Get Back - WHAT IS OURS - other that what we are doing now and going to take forward into 2008



We welcome any ideas for a positive move - cos we a'int had any so far.



Publicity is what the TRNC Authorities really hate - especially BAD PUBLICITY - Look what happened when HBPG (they have now taken the P out of their name) tried to protest - wow threats of legal action and jail etc - thats where we are different here in the UK - We can protest - we live in a democracy not a Dictatorial Muppet Regime run by Puppets on behalf of the Criminal Community.



Good heavens why would the WIFE of a Government Minister own and open a BUILDING SUPPLIES Shop - most women would open a boutique - Its laughable ! T



he British are seen as nothing more than Cash Cows in a regime where there is NO LEGAL SAFEGUARD OF ANY KIND - if there is please point it out to us

davidoff


Joined: 21/04/2007
Posts: 438

Message Posted:
06/12/2007 19:08

Hi vick.



At the end of the day we do appreciate what your aim is and what you are doing but equally you are everywhere people turn!!



We all understand the ammount of pitfalls there are in NC as it is wothout your constant reminders!!



Also the way you go about it does portray an image that all builders, developers and agents in NC are all frauds when that is NOT THE CASE-But only a small handful are!!



I understand your dilemma, anger, frustration and annoiance at what has happened to your parents and others!!!



But also I would like to add that people NEED to employ independant solicitors, do their own research and dont pay payments without proof of build stages and what, when and where they are due, and dont believe everything your told and all agreements made verbally need to be in your contract as verbal agreements are null and void and you cannot fight a battle without legal proof- Common sense is needed in foreign coutries more so than in your home country!!



BUT THAT DOES NOT GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO CREATE A THREAD TO PERSONALLY ATTACK ANOTHER PERSON ON HERE!!!



IN THAT RESPECT PLEASE GROW UP AND BE A BIT SENSIBLE AND RESPONSIBLE HERE!!



We all get YOUR PICTURE OF HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT NC -But let others also make up their own minds instead of having you consitently ramming it down their throats!!!



Keep up the good work- But leave out the personal insults as EVEYONE IS ENTITLED TO THEIR OWN OPINION AT THE END OF THE DAY!!!



Take care all-D

victoriasloss


Joined: 27/04/2007
Posts: 46

Message Posted:
06/12/2007 19:18

I have not attacked anyone Davidoff, just replying politely to and addressing Donty. I merely answered Donty when he aimed a comment to me toward the bottom of the UNWIN thread



"victoria if you are reading this, please remove my post from you website as i object to it. i cant believe you are using the poisoning of animals to put people off of buying here (this is no different to propoganda Greek Cypriots use to put people off of TRNC). i have read in british papers of kids tying fireworks to cats! ****ing disgusting! so dont buy there.



victoria why not start a website warning people of the dangers of living in Britain as they have peadophiles, robbers, muggers, drug addicts, conmen, corruption, pollution etc etc etc etc! "



I thought that the conversation was going in a way that was of no interest to the other posting. I am merely answering his questions with no offensive comments aimed at Donty in any way shape or form. Can you please explain where I have "PERSONALLY ATTACK ANOTHER PERSON ON HERE!!! "

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
06/12/2007 23:57

victorialass

keep up the good work, and dont be silenced.As someone who has invested in trnc ,I think the best way to protect my investment is for people like you to force change Donty, its to late to sweep things under the carpet,word has got out.,We must hope for changes that will give a better impression ,and thus make it once again an attractive propostion to invest here.My investment and your business will benifit in the long term.

p4aul


Joined: 12/10/2007
Posts: 71

Message Posted:
07/12/2007 00:32

Why not get a lawyer from Turkey then?



3 . Existence of reciprocity between Republic of Turkey and the state where the judgment was rendered for the recognition and enforcement of judgments.

The reciprocity is considered to have been realized in three ways under Turkish Law.The first way is the existence of a treaty between Turkey and the state wherein the court judgment or award has been rendered as final.Presently Turkey has bilateral treaties with Austria, Roumania, Italy and Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus on the reciprocal recognition and enforcement of the court judgments or awards rendered by the courts or arbitration tribunals in the jurisdictions of contracting parties of the reciprocity treaties.

The second way is establishing the existence of a legal provision allowing the recognition and enforcement of a judgment or award rendered by courts and tribunals of the Republic of Turkey in the legislation of the state wherein the court judgment or award were made.

The third and the most widely enhancing way is to determine whether a de facto reciprocity exists in the state wherein the judgment or award was made.If the actual practice in the state wherein the court judgment was rendered, is to recognize and enforce the judgments rendered by the courts of the Republic of Turkey, then the judgments of the courts of the said state will be recognized and enforced in Turkey.



http://www.gmaa.de/Turkey.pdf

sjw1979


Joined: 09/04/2007
Posts: 162

Message Posted:
07/12/2007 00:38

Hi Sporty,

have a great trip and if you could visit caesar and take a few photos,

that would be great, I will buy you a beer someday ;) !!

davidoff


Joined: 21/04/2007
Posts: 438

Message Posted:
07/12/2007 08:32

Hi vick,



By your first post and the creation of this thread I felt that it was tormenting a debate!!



Also as much as I appreciate all you are trying to achieve in fighting a good cause for owners - equally I feel harassed by your postings which seem to be about the same thing everywhere people turn!!!



I hope that you can make changes for the best but the HBPG has been trying to do this for years and have even admitted that they have not really achieved anything in NC and are now hounded and pressured even threatened to a degree by the NC government!!!!



Alot of the issues you fight for are in existance all over the world and many countries and people are in the same position so I hink that ONLY ATTACKING NC on these issues are unfair!!!



I sympathise for all those that have problems and issues and as yet fortunately I have had no real problems- BUT I am fighting the other corner as I feel its unfair to to negatively brand the whole of NC and portray it all in this negative light!!!



Its like saying everyone in england is a crook OR the whole spanish government is corrupt???



Hope you can see where Im coming from- As I do strongly believe that there are two sides to every story!!!



ALSO if your parents DIDNT have a bad experience in NC then would your site and work in progress even exist??? Would you still have the same feelings as you have now???



Take care-D

victoriasloss


Joined: 27/04/2007
Posts: 46

Message Posted:
07/12/2007 09:40

Hi Pau4l



One of the clan has tried that - laywers from Turkey - he has had 3 turkish lawyers involved, once they look into how deep "waters run" (they find out something we are sure) they back off. They also say that they are unwilling to enforce any judgements and we cannot find out why. There have been meetings with the highest ranking officials in the TRNC and still no answers. Everytime the question is raised they seem to talk about everything but judgements. Its so strange. The guy concerned spent over £1700 on Turkish Lawyers to find this out. Things are so strained here for people - their losses range between £10k being the samllest and £1.5 million being the largest. The average is £75k. These people have waited far too long. The website is the only toolt hat Brits have to express their feelings when the legal system in the TRNC is non-existant.



Davidoff



I am sorry that if you feel that replying to a comment aimed directly at me by Donty is "shoving it down your throat" - but as you say freedom of speech and opinion is one thing that we do have - how else was I expected to answer Donty ? Yes these issures rage around the world and there are websites that prove this - but the people that we are involved with were ripped off in the TRNC and there is no legal help what so ever.



Davidoff there is a page for good guys and we have even linked to a tread on Cyprus 44 which names many, but the public must be made aware that there are bad stories also. We have over 200 stiroes but the space on the site is limited and we chop and change the stories on the 7 pages that we use as and when we have the time.



Any more ideas for a Positive Move ?

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
07/12/2007 11:04

Victoria



i dont have time to write an essay today so ill do it in stages.



what would happen in the UK if you employed a builder to build you a new house and the house never got finished and the builder either went bankrupt or disappeared?



does the government bail you out?



does it mean that the country is overrun with criminals?

Milou


Joined: 15/10/2007
Posts: 425

Message Posted:
07/12/2007 11:38

Dear Victoriasloss



I am so very sorry for your plight and understand the anguish you must all be feeling. Personally, I belive that going to more solicitors is throwing money down the drain and I believe that the HBG have done all that they can for your group. Like all corrupt governments in the world, your only recourse now is to MARCH with banners. You have nothing to lose - let them arrest all the people that have lost everything. Let the world see how the law really works.



Gerne 29 is absolutely right - you are our proctection. World publicity is now your only recourse for justice. And if all those developers want to continue making money, LET THEM MARCH WITH YOU. All those self-satisfied people who think they went to good developers but don't have their title deeds - LET THEM MARCH WITH YOU. Lastly, all those satisfied people sitting in their homes with their title deeds, LET THEM MARCH WITH YOU.



Whatever you do, PLEASE DON'T APOLOGISE to people on this forum who think that because they'e OK, NO ONE ELSE HAS THE RIGHT TO FIGHT FOR

a m i n i m u m STANDARD of a very basic human right - THE RIGHT TO OWN A PROPERTY WHICH YOU PAID FOR.



I should be there at the beginning of March and will, separately give you my contact details of where I CAN BE FOUND.



Please express to the rest of your group how sorry I am.

TonyH


Joined: 22/11/2007
Posts: 107

Message Posted:
07/12/2007 14:16

As a prospective purchaser I find Victoria's posts and website very useful as a reminder of what can go wrong for some people.



At the end of the day you do your research, weigh up the pros and cons and make a decision.



The more info the better I feel and you make your own judgement as to whether the information is sound or not.

victoriasloss


Joined: 27/04/2007
Posts: 46

Message Posted:
07/12/2007 15:07

the website has gone - the truth must hurt ! anyhow have backup at



http://www.freewebs.com/trncpropertywarning/index.htm



amongst others.



May we take the opportunity of thanking everyone who has contacted us here and off board - your support, ideas and encouragement really helps us and spurs us on.



Donty - the issue is finding a "postive way forward" according to your post - not the why and wherefores of what happens around the globe. We were ripped off in the TRNC and that whom we look to for re-course . We have documented evidence of high level corruption which we are yet to release into the public domain - yes the authorities are involved and should help out as they are part of the cause

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
07/12/2007 15:39

not prepared to answer my question eh!



why do you expect to get better service from this place than you do in the UK?



im done with you now. you have no idea how the real world works and must believe in fairies.



p.s read this months property nc magazine everyone as there is a good article about the work the HB(p)G and marion stokes are doing and the progress they have made with their positive approach.

victoriasloss


Joined: 27/04/2007
Posts: 46

Message Posted:
07/12/2007 15:53

Donty



whats there to answer - if you get a judgement here in the UKagainst anyone - the court sends in baliffs to take goods or immoveable property to the value off to satisfy the judgement- thats what we would expect from the lawyers in the TRNC - but its not happening - they refuse to help in enforcing judgements. There is too much money missing - taken by various criminals not just Gary Robb and AGA You do not have baliffs there that will take the action required - What is the use of swiping a "car" when those wronged are not in the TRNC to reap the benefit of it. You mentioned that we should take a more positive step forward - I ask you again - whats this "positive step" or do you not have one that springs to mind that we have already tried ? Yes we must believe in fairies - because thats what a solution to the victims represents - Planet Zog and fairies - Solution that is being barred by high level corruption and a non-existant legal system

namus


Joined: 23/06/2007
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
07/12/2007 15:57

It has been a long time since I looked and posted on this website when I tried to warn people of the dangers of 'investing' (aka buying stolen property from rogue developers) in TRNC but was howled down as a Greek infiltrator.



Victoria, keep it up. You are a lone voice with backbone and may yet save a few unwary individuals from throwing away their money.



As for Davidoff's request for warnings over GB there is a clear difference. In GB we live under the rule of law and there is a system for bringing criminals to justice. TRNC lives under a system of complete corruption where justice is meaningless compared to money.



My only concern Victoria, is that after being married to a Turkish Cypriot for approx 30 years and many dealings in N Cyprus I feel that you may have an uphill struggle finding justice in a country where corruption is so deeply embedded.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
07/12/2007 23:46

Hi Namus,

long time no see. Welcome back. Anyone know if the PCO has had any success dealing with purchase complaints? The HBPG seems to have gone very quiet and a little inactive and although you can read about the many complaints there is not much publicity regarding whether people have reached satisfactory conclusions. Is the PCO an effective mechanism? If anyone has any experience where they have been helped by the PCO could they let us know?

davidoff


Joined: 21/04/2007
Posts: 438

Message Posted:
08/12/2007 09:23

Hi all,



At the end of the day people need to realise that if you invest in NC then you need to be prepared for the unexpected and that NC is a high risk place to invest!!



Many go into this blindfolded and do not do enought research before hand and automatically feel that although they come from an alrady established cuntry that they are protected or have some fall back on complications that may arise in NC -WHERE THIS IS NOT TRUE!!!



The government their are strong willed and will not listen or change for anyone else apart from themselves!



Take care all-D

lovingcyprus


Joined: 02/03/2007
Posts: 1272

Message Posted:
08/12/2007 14:02

All forms of investment (even cash) bears a certain amount of risk, this applies to wherever you are in the world.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
08/12/2007 14:38

I think that the number of people buying in north cyprus "blind folded" is diminishing. It may have been the case 4-5 years ago but now you can hardly avoid all the publicity and advice that abounds on many forums, the media and of course the pressure groups. I do get concerned however when people dismiss the reasons for things going wrong as "they didn't do their homework"

"it could happen in England or Spain too". So not doing your homework makes it ok for people to be swindled out of thousands? All this does is pushes the blame on to the purchaser and removes it from the corrupt builder, estate agent or lawyer. Thus perpetuates the problem. Why do people insinuate such action is deserved for not doing their research? In life I'm sure we have all at sometime confused hospitality with honesty? Forgive me if I'm wrong but I hoped forums like this existed to support one another and prevent buyers from making the mistakes others have made? A support network for each other? Yes things can go wrong when you buy in England and Spain but you have so much more legal comeback and protection.....there can be no comparison. Being a potential buyer in the TRNC obviously means that I want a good investment and I want the TRNC's economy to grow and grow.I want it to take off as a tourist resort so that better paid jobs are available to the TC's and of course, like all, I want it to be recognised and maintain its reputation for being one of the friendliest places in the Med. Hiding the existing problems under the carpet will never achieve the above. Pretending its the fault of buyers Davidoff might make you feel safe with your own purchase but its a very short term solution to what is a long term problem for many. Yes do as much research as is possible, evidently some have not done this, as they would be aware that even if you follow all advice to the T you are still at the mercy of the legal system and government who hold all the strings. I know people are excited at the prospect of moving into their new homes and people coming onto forums with such negative experiences is not what we want to hear, so it is easy to dismiss them but we achieve and learn little from doing so.

Milou


Joined: 15/10/2007
Posts: 425

Message Posted:
08/12/2007 15:09

Hi Bradus



Your comments are well made - you must be a very nice person! And I feel, you've expressed a lot of what many of us feel -well done. Hope to meet up with you one day.

Regards

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
08/12/2007 15:43

That would be nice Milou. I am sure we can work something out.

davidoff


Joined: 21/04/2007
Posts: 438

Message Posted:
09/12/2007 12:28

Hi all ,



Im sorry you fell that I am a bad person here from ymy recent comments but infact you are so wrong!!!!



At the end of the day people are purchasing in NC as its very cheap and you get much more for your money and it is underdeveloped- THERE ARE VERY GOOD REASONS FOR THIS!!!



I sympathise for those who have been conned and ripped off along the way but the truth is that people need to be even more aware when purchasing in NC than anywhere else!!!

It is not an established or mature market like other countries hence why theres no real protection for buyers there!!!



I really do appreciate and respect what VL and HBPG are doing but the fact remains that that over the years not much has changed and the government are stubborn and do not listen!!



At the end of the day are these action groups giving people WHO HAVE SUFFERED HOPE OR FALSE HOPE???



I tell it how it is and take responsibility for my own actions and I will be the first to stand up and admit when Im wrong!!



BUT Instead of always saying its the developers faults I am just trying to say that buyers need to be more vigilant when buying also- I am not blaming the buyers- But sometimes people do rush in and make decisions without knowing the full facts and history especially when buying abroad!! Hence why Im trying to say be a bit more careful and take your time and understand any consequences or risks involved!!!



That doesnt seem like an unreasonable thing to say does it???



NC is changing for the better BUT WHO KNOWS WHEN FOREIGNERS BUYING WILL HAVE ADEQATE PROTECTION FROM PITFALLS???

Its like saying what come first the chicken or the egg???



And thats the reality of it!!



Take care all-D

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
09/12/2007 13:15

It's a very raw market, it's only just developing, and lets face it, through international embargoes the TC's have probably not been able to develop the skills of business administration to a wider international community. In England we expect and have got used to a higher level of consumer protection. This took some time to achieve and even still with this greater level of protection, in numerous cases many sellers still look to circumvent and flout the law.



I do agree with Bradus though, that you cannot just push the blame on to the purchaser. The TRNC should be encouraged to recognise that consumer protection and the enforcement of law is the best way to build a healthy and sustainable housing market (economy). Sellers also need to learn that the best way to do business is to build trust and to demonstrate honesty, that way one builds an indelible reputation.

Prosperity is built on the foundations of reasonable law and order, chaos, anxiety, insecurity and disorder feeds off corruption and mismanagement.



I am not that close to these organisations, but I certainly honour and respect the work of Marion at the HBPG. I feel sorry for VL and all of the buyers she is helping to recompense. I do recognise that she and those she is protecting have been pushed to the point of desperation, but I do get concerned sometimes about how far her and her team are willing to push this. It's a fine line in being able to apply the right amount of pressure. Too little pressure and you are ineffectual, too much and you run the risk of a potental fall out.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
09/12/2007 13:24

The TRNC government must recognise that getting their house in order is crtitical. Previously, they have never had to do so because the international community has not been watching so willfully. Now it is, and they can demonstrate to the world that they can run their affairs properly and hence warrant international recognition which they so earnestly crave.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
09/12/2007 14:24

You took the words right out of my mouth ilovecyprus! Davidoff nobody is suggesting that you are a "bad person" your contributions to this forum (and topix) are well respected and most of the time are much the same sentiments as my own. I just feel that we are all vulnerable even those of us that have done our research and sometimes we need pushing out of the comfort zone so that we really can see the bigger picture.



Kind regards

Sue.

davidoff


Joined: 21/04/2007
Posts: 438

Message Posted:
09/12/2007 18:17

Hi all,



Also I would like to add that if we were to protest to the trnc or turkish government regarding peoples rights- I WOULD BE THE FIRST ONE IN LINE TO DO THIS !!!

In the hope of preventing others from suffering and loosing out in the future!!!



My comments regarding purchasers is not to blame them -BUTin fact it is easier at this point to reach to buyers and forewarn them that there are these issues and to be more weiry of this in the first place so they can make a more informed decision for them selves before taking the plunge!!!

The reason being is that we cannot change the crooks or go after them ourselves and lock them up (I WISH) Or force a corrpt government to change who wish not to because they are profiteering from it!!!



SO it is easier to tell others to be CAREFUL AND UNDERSTAND THE RISKS BEFORE HAND SO THEY CAN DECIDE WHETHER THEY CAN AFFORD TO TAKE THE RISK OR NOT IN THE FIRST PLACE!!



Take care all-D

TonyH


Joined: 22/11/2007
Posts: 107

Message Posted:
09/12/2007 18:22

Well said davidoff, my thoughts exactly.

victoriasloss


Joined: 27/04/2007
Posts: 46

Message Posted:
09/12/2007 19:16

ditto - see you in london 2008 - Bedford Square - Davidoff............:0) and anyone else willing to join us !!!!!!

davidoff


Joined: 21/04/2007
Posts: 438

Message Posted:
09/12/2007 22:09

Hi all,



No probs lets just do it...........!!!! Who else in ....?????

Just a few hours of your time for a worthy cause for all us owners- Lets make the difference and hope our voice is heard by all for once!!!



IM DEFINATELY IN -Tell me when, where and how and Ill be there!!!

I live near London anyway!!!



Take care all-D